Don't Big Box Carytown, Part II

The saga continues over what to do with the former Verizon building on Nansemond and Floyd, at the top of Carytown.  Michael Paul Williams addressed the issues in today's column, titled "Development Could Cost Carytown."  He and I are on the same page on this one.  [OK, bad pun.]

As described in a previous blog post, an out-of-state developer has the property under contract subject to a re-zoning approval.  Word has been that the developer plans to renovate the property and lease the resulting retail space to Whole Foods. The developer and all its representatives (lawyers, real estate agents, various consultants) are being cagey about the ultimate anchor tenant, which makes some community members nervous.

I've said before, I personally think a fourth grocery store within yards of three other grocery stores is a dumb idea - whether Whole Foods, Trader Joe's or Dean & Deluca.  The franchise matters not.  If the rumors are true, it would probably be great for the developer, and great for Whole Foods, but in my opinion it's not great for Carytown and the larger City of Richmond community.  I just don't see how four grocery stores in the same circumscribed area are sustainable.  If that theory is true, some other business - be it Ellwood Thompson, or Martin's, or Kroger, or some combination of the three - will not make it.  How is that good for the neighborhood?  If retail is going to go into that space, how about some retail that we don't have in the City - maybe a home goods store, or sporting goods store, or specialty clothing store(s).  There isn't a decent shoe store in Carytown - Saxon Shoes, anyone?  Just ideas.

And why does the property have to be retail anyway?  How about residential?  Could it be an age-restricted, 55+ community?  I am sure that would be successful, with the ever-increasing number of downsizing Baby Boomers who really want to be in a walkable community but need parking and elevators.  Or what about just plain old apartments, for all the college graduates and other 20-somethings who want to live in a cool urban environment but aren't ready or able to buy their first home, particularly at Fan and Museum District prices?

Of course reasonable people can differ on this issue.  But my $.02 is another grocery store of any flavor in that location would be a bad idea.  Asbestos suit on, ready for incoming.

Comments

[Melissa Loughridge Savenko]

Hey Charles:

Thanks for your comment. I don't want to benefit Short Pump either, and I would like to see more retail and other businesses in the City. I don't even object to some sort of "big box" store in that space. It just doesn't seem to me to be good for the CITY generally or Carytown/Museum District specifically to add another form of Big Box retail for a category that is already extremely well served.

I know the die-hard Whole Foodies disagree with me. I'm indifferent to Whole Foods' charms, so that argument - better groceries! - isn't persuasive to me personally. I also understand why folks perceive Ellwood Thompson's spearheading of the "Don't Big Box Carytown" campaign as hypocritical.

Personally, I'd rather see something we don't have any of in the City go into that space. How about a Target? Or a Best Buy? Or a shoe store [please, please, PLEASE! a shoe store]? Or, to quote Will Ferrell in "Old School," how about "something really cool that I haven't even thought of?"

I think another grocery store in that space would be a wasted opportunity to capture a retail segment that is currently COMPLETELY unavailable in the City. Just my $.02, that's all.

[charles]

I'm all for people democratically expressing their opinions. That said, I'm not sure how democratic I find ellwood's front organization. (and I like/shop at ellwood). No great sympathy for the developers as little guys either.

But I believe in the free market, much much more than I believe in "plans and overlays". One produced Paris, the other produced every banal suburb with a HOA you see in the counties.

And I believe more business in Carytown and the Fan, WHATEVER it is, is a good thing. And I'm a neighborhood resident. Traffic here is not a problem - lack of vitality could be. And business attracts business.

We need a thriving city of richmond. Ellwood's opposition just benefits the horror that is short pump.

[Melissa Loughridge Savenko]

FanGuy, I really don't think saying I boycott one brand is the same as saying I am COMMITTED to one brand. Just me though.

And you are right, I haven't spent much time in Whole Foods - just a few times in the one in Charlottesville. But you are correct - I've talked to friends over the last few days and many are all for a new Whole Foods, LOVE the store. It's almost like a cult.

Look, I don't claim to believe my preferences are the only preferences or that they are "right." And I'm not anti-competition or anti-development. [I'll address those perceptions in a blog post later]. But I do believe strongly that I should be able to express my preferences, and the "Don't Big Box Carytown" folks should be able to as well. If those preferences ultimately impact the development process, that's what democracy is all about. Don't you agree?

[FanGuy]

Um, Melissa, do you see the contradiction in saying, as you do, that you have no chain loyalties in one sentence, and then saying you won't shop Martin's because they aren't Ukrops? LOL.

The bottom line is that your argument is about capping competition. Let the free market decide.

And there are plenty of Whole Foods fans who are not huge organic shoppers. I'm guessing you've never been to a Whole Foods.

[Melissa Loughridge Savenko]

@Shannon: It seems like supporters of WF tend to be hard core organic shoppers, for the most part. I, as a lackadaisical organic shopper, do not feel constrained by having only Ellwood Thompson as the local organic option, but I can understand the frustration of those that do. That being said, it seems to me competition is already occurring, with Kroger adding a bazillion square feet (old CVS, former chain drug store #3, already bulldozed), much of which will allegedly be devoted to organic food.

@FanGuy: Nope, I clearly do not understand the love of the Whole Foodies for the chain. I do not have such chain loyalties. Mainly I shop Kroger because they have the best grocery store wine selection, IMO, and I am boycotting Martin's because they aren't Ukrop's. [Unless I need some chicken salad and white house rolls, in which case my principled stand crumbles like crispy cookies.]

[FanGuy]

I know plenty of people who drive to ShortPump just to go to Whole Foods. You are underestimating the love people have for WF.

[Shannon]

But that statement - that it will be the 4th store - ASSUMES the fact that stores like Ellwood's have an inherent right to survive no matter what.

What I was saying was that Ellwood's would have a nice challenge with regard to competitive pricing and front of the house image/sanitation should the public have an alternate choice. I don't think that it is disrespectful to state that I would rather people not touch my food who smell like body odor and the party from two night's ago. Straight up. Just honest. And I shopped there for years and years. Was the only game in town for lots of my staples.

I do think that there is an palpable air of complacent assumption that shows in the customer service at Ellwood's, as well as other factors, and the public would only serve to gain if the stakes were that Ellwood's improve or close. So, there may not be 4 stores for long, and that's free-market. Those who are willing to take constructive criticism and raise the bar of their service to the public will live. It's up the them to do that. Or not.

But up until this point, there has really been no reason for them to try. It's been a monopoly, and their service - much like VA Power's service - shows it.

Don't think I am the only one that feels this way, but I will say that this is just my opinion, and offered in a most constructive spirit.

[Melissa Loughridge Savenko]

I DO believe in the free market, with appropriate and duly adopted governmental restrictions- zoning, historic district overlays, Master Plan compliance. I also believe in the free market of ideas. Community members, including myself and Ellwood Thompsons, have the right to express their opinions on development proposals in their community. And we can have respectful debate about our differences of opinion.

I don't think Whole Foods would bring new customers to Carytown. I suspect these theoretical WF customers are already shopping at Kroger and Martin's and Ellwood Thompson.

My point is I would rather have "new" retail development, not competitive retail development. I'm not even anti-chain. I just think a 4th GROCERY store in a 2 block radius benefits very few people besides the developer and WF - if they are indeed even the hypothetical tenant. Don't you think that having different retail - a type that we don't already have enough of - would be better for the City?

[Shannon]

Gotta agree with Fanguy on this one. Ellwood Thompson is, and always has been kind of an overpriced joke - as well as a haven for the dirty employee of the year award. They know it, we all know it. They only survive due to lack of competition.

Free market society does not dictate that we refuse to compete with the weak because it would be mean. Kinda the opposite, with the hope that the weak will begin to price things reasonably, as well as, uh - bathe.

Because that's food you're handling...

[FanGuy]

I thought you believed in the free market? A Whole Foods would bring an entirely new group of people to Carytown. The merchants of Carytown (with the exception of Ellwoods for obvious reasons) want Whole Foods. If Ellwoods/Martins can't compete, then those stores can close and be redeveloped. Why should we be stuck with overpriced/inferior stores like Ellwoods and Martins? The competition would be good for Richmonders.